Robert Runciman (m. Agnes KING)1,2
(circa 1794 - 5 May 1869)
|Father*||Thomas Runciman (m. Jean SIMPSON)3,4 (circa Jul 1762 - bet. 1841 - 1851)|
|Mother-Assmd*||Jean Simpson5,3,4 (bet. 1756 - 1761 - bet. 1841 - 1851)|
IntroDoes a tailor become a hind? Are there two families here or one?
With the differences in occupation I had doubts about my identification of these family connections, however "reasonable" they seemed when I first made them.
My answer is now yes, as at least the son of a taylor does indeed become a hind/land steward. I had the answer all along, the death cert. of son John clearly shows his father (John married to Marion Weatherly) as a land steward.
The tailor connection:
1783: Thomas Runciman and Jean Simpson marry in Haddington, Thomas a taylor, (recorded in the Dunbar OPR)
1784: John, son of Thomas and Jean (Simpson), taylor at Broxburn born/baptised
This John is linked to the one married to May/Marion Weatherly through the latter 's marriage which gives John's father as Thomas, albeit with no occupations listed for either father or son.
An earlier Thomas was a tailor, eg 1770 bap. Alexander s/o Thomas and Barbara Wallis - which latter surname features as a witness somewhere (yet to be refound)
The farming connections (which may or may not indicate a different family despite the same wife's names):
1798: at Crawhill: a son George born to Thomas a hind.
1808 Isabella born to John and May (Weatherly) which may be the link crossing the boundary between tailor Thomas and hind Thomas.
1871 death of John son of John and Marion (Weatherly) in Edinburgh, father John shown as a land steward, deceased.
1869 Robert (married to Agnes King) is linked because his death cert states his father as Thomas, ag labourer, but mother not named
1885 Thomas (married to Mary Redpath) is linked because his death cert states his parents as Thomas, general labourer, and Jane, albeit without a surname for Jane.
Alexander (married to Joan Manderson) is linked to farming Thomas by naming pattern of his children, and because a Thomas, hind was witness to several of his children's baptisms, at Mickle Pinkerton, which place features in several earlier entries in the Dunbar OPRs, eg birth of George 1734 to Thomas and Helen (Stevensone).
Alexander, possibly this one, is linked as witness to marriage of John and Marion Weatherly at Oldhamstocks (banns Innerwick where father Thomas was cautioner for the groom)
Once Alexander is linked in, this also links in the George married to Janet Darling, as their respective children Agnes and George are documented on their 1861 marriage cert as first cousins.
With large gaps in the known children for George and Janet there was room to fit in a son Thomas, who has now been found (died Edinburgh 1877) to add naming pattern into the evidence for the prosecution
Until I found the Crawhill connection I was coming to the conclusion that there were two families, but even with the Crawhill connection between Alexander's and John's families, it still isn't really "proof" that they are one family but could be indicative of two Johns, one son of the tailor, the other married to May Weatherly.6,7,8
BDMsRobert Runciman was born circa 1794 Dunbar, ELN, SCT, (not immediately obvious in OPRs.)3,9
Robert Runciman married Agnes King on 25 Sep 1813 at Dunbar, East Lothian, (extracted IGI batch 18th, Edin; patron submission says Dunbar 25th, confirmed by SctP index search.)1,10,11,12
Robert Runciman died on 5 May 1869 East Linton, Par. of Prestonkirk, ELN, SCT; cert. shows Robert as 75, labourer, widower of Agnes KING, s/o Thomas, labourer, dec'd, (no mother shown); d. 6:30am of pericarditis (certified). Inf. son David; Reg. 6th, East Linton.3
CensusRobert Runciman and Agnes Runciman appeared on the census of 1841 Pleasants, Par. of Spott, ELN, SCT, and are assumed to be husband and wife. They were enumerated as RUNCIMAN: Robert 45 ag lab; Agnas 45 both b ELN; Assumed Children: Gunet (Janet assumed) 20, Thomas 20 ag lab, David 15 ag lab, Olander (Alexander assumed) 11, William 9, Agnes 7 All b ELN; Assumed grdchild Janel (?James) HENDERSON 6 mos (male) b ELN.14
Robert Runciman was shown as the head of the household in the census of 1851 Thurston Mains, Par. of Innerwick, ELN, SCT, with Agnes enumerated as RUNCIMAN: Robert 48 ag lab b Dunbar, HAD; wife Agnes 59 b Oldhamstocks, HAD; Children: William 18, Agnes 15 both ag labs b Spott, HAD.9
Names/other infoRobert outlived his wife Agnes King who died bet. 1851 - 1869.3
DNA InfoRobert's line needs a/another participant in the RUNCIMAN Surname DNA Project. Check out the Wanted! page for further information.
SummaryWith a possible first son John, even though Robert's dth cert says his father was Thomas, I would normally be looking for a John having children in the right time/place but candidates are thin on the ground.
All of which makes one look at the possible gap between marriage and "first" son John's birth and hope that a Thomas fitted in there.
Circumstantial evidence (and some convincing from Frank) strongly indicates that Robert is related to the Alexander married to Joan MANDERSON.
Which, when combined with a death cert. saying his father is a Thomas, is sufficient, for now, to place him there.
We await a dna participant for this line to clinch the id.
(The circumstantial evidence is that in the 1861 census, Robert's son David has an "aunt-in-law" Margaret MANDERSON with him.
Frank's view of this is that an uncle's wife's sister might qualify for that title (as well as Margaret being his wife Mary SKIRVEN's aunt), but I suspect she earned her title simply because she is his wife's aunt (see 1851 census as well).15,16,3
LinksClick here to see Robert's page on WikiTree, a (free) collaborative on-line tree.17
|Agnes King (circa 1792 - bet. 1851 - 1869)|
|Charts||Lineage 1d: Alexander & Janet (HENDRIE) RUNCIMAN of Dunbar, ELN|
Wanted: Thomas and Jean (Simpson) Runciman
Wanted: Robert and Agnes (King) Runciman
|Last Edited||15 Oct 2016|
- [S56] Scottish BMDB entries (from 1855), http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/index.php, Dth 9 Feb 1866 Thomas s/o Robert RUNCIMAN & Agnes KING, reg. Yester, ELN, 725/00 Pg 2 #2, copy d/loaded Mar 2010.
- [S203] 1851 Census transcripts, Scotland, via Ancestry.com, Yester, ELN Par 725 ED 3 Pg 3 Sched 7, hsehold of John & Margaret RUNCIMAN (indexed on ancestry as PURSIMAR), extracted Jan 2008.
- [S56] Scottish BMDB entries (from 1855), http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/index.php, Dth 5 May 1869 Robert s/o Thomas RUNCIMAN, East Linton, Par. of Prestonkirk, County of Haddington, (ELN), copy d/loaded Mar 2010.
- [S56] Scottish BMDB entries (from 1855), http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/index.php, Dth 3 Dec 1885 Thomas s/o Thomas & Jane RUNCIMAN, aged 99 yrs 11 mths, d. Carincross, Coldingham, BEW, 732/01 0044, copy d/loaded Feb 2010.
- [S3] Lorna Henderson, "RUNCIMAN Analysis", Jun 2010.
- [S3] Lorna Henderson, "RUNCIMAN Analysis", Apr 2010.
- [S56] Scottish BMDB entries (from 1855), http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/index.php, Dth 1871 John RUNCIMAN, Dist 685/2 Pg 102 #304, Edinburgh St Andrew, MLN, copy d/loaded Apr 2007.
- [S15] RUNCIMAN DNA Project online at http://dnasurnames.info/lineages/spRUNCIMANLineages.htm, Oct 2011.
- [S203] 1851 Census transcripts, Scotland, via Ancestry.com, Innerwick, ELN Par. 711 ED 3 Pg 19 Sched 22 hsehold of Robert & Agnes RUNCIMAN, extracted Mar 2010.
- [S1596] Online search: assorted surnames, International Genealogical Index (IGI), Marr. 18 Sep 1813 Robert RUNCIMAN & Agnes KING, batch M119883, St Cuthberts, Edin, MLN, extracted Mar 2010.
- [S1596] Online search: assorted surnames, International Genealogical Index (IGI), Marr. 25 Sep 1813 Robert RUNCIMAN & Agnes KING, patron submission batch 6934509 sheed 37 srce call 0538286 Dunbar, ELN, extracted Mar 2010.
- [S103] Scotlands People Index, "OPR East Lothian SctP RUNCIMAN Marriages 1538-1854", Marr. 25 Sep 1813 Robert RUNCIMAN & Agnes KING, Dunbar, ELN, 706/ 0050 0215, extracted from index Mar 2010.
- [S15] RUNCIMAN DNA Project online at http://dnasurnames.info/lineages/spRUNCIMANLineages.htm, Apr 2010, updated Mar 2012 and Jun 2016.
- [S201] 1841 Census transcripts, Scotland, via Ancestry.com, Spott, ELN Par. 720 ED 2 Pg 4, hsehold of Robert & Agnas RUNCIMAN, extracted Mar 2010.
- [S3] Lorna Henderson, "RUNCIMAN Analysis", Mar 2010.
- [S205] 1861 Census transcripts, Scotland, via Ancestry.com, Thornton Loch, Innerwick, ELN Reg. 711 ED 2 Pg 9 Sched 36, hsehold of David & Mary RUNCIMAN, extracted Jun 2010.
- [S3217] WikiTree online at http://WikiTree.com/, Oct-11.
- [S104] Scotlands People Index, "OPR Berwick, SCT, RUNCIMAN Births 1538-1854", Birth (or bap?) 28 Nov 1818 Janet d/o Robert RUNCIMAN & Agnes KING, Cockburnspath, BEW 731/ 0020 0159, extracted from index Mar 2010.
- [S104] Scotlands People Index, "OPR Berwick, SCT, RUNCIMAN Births 1538-1854", Birth (or bap?) 8 Jan 1824 Robert s/o Robert RUNCIMAN & Agnes KING, Cockburnspath, BEW 731/ 0030 0023, extracted from index Mar 2010.
- [S104] Scotlands People Index, "OPR Berwick, SCT, RUNCIMAN Births 1538-1854", Birth (or bap?) 15 Oct 1826 David s/o Robert RUNCIMAN & Agnes KING, Cockburnspath, BEW 731/ 0030 0022, extracted from index Mar 2010.